Curse

Fay Vert · Jul 24, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notorious Bob

PI, EVAS and Finish Him practically never leave me skill bar

^This

That is the problem with BHA, when you're packing those three, that bad elite is not adding anything. Send the MM in and let the big AOE boss do his worst under PI, dazing is counter productive! You don't want to interrupt his big nuke when you want him to kill himself. And all the while you are wandering round trying to find a use for that skill, the rest of the party are covering up gimped your build is.

Ugh · Jul 24, 2009, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

^This

That is the problem with BHA, when you're packing those three, that bad elite is not adding anything. Send the MM in and let the big AOE boss do his worst under PI, dazing is counter productive! You don't want to interrupt his big nuke when you want him to kill himself. And all the while you are wandering round trying to find a use for that skill, the rest of the party are covering up gimped your build is.

While I'd rather not risk get half my party wiped to kill a boss a few seconds faster, I see your point. But, BHA is still much better against Eles with few aoe skills, Necros, Mesmers, Rits, and Monks.

Edit: Also, I'm never packing those three at once because they are all 10e and aren't affected by Expertise.

MagmaRed · Jul 24, 2009, 02:48 AM // 02:48

If a hench like Zho or Daemon can use BHA well, a player can use it better (or should be able to). I never take Pain Inverter because it only does damage if the monster I cast it on does damage. I much prefer to prevent that damage. Daze not only slows down the casting speed (which HM monsters already get a bonus on) but makes them easy to interrupt. Physical damage classes can easily be shut down with skills like Aegis or blind/weakness. Casters, however, can deal damage to a team very easily, and stopping them is important.

Personally, I run Glass Arrows in HM most often to deal damage, and let the heroes do the interrupting. But BHA is far from a bad skill.

mypony89 · Jul 25, 2009, 01:19 PM // 13:19

At the risk of sounding like a complete noob, (which, in my defence I've only been playing for 4 weeks,) but people are saying they don't like BHA, they like Glass Arrows, they don't like Burning Arrows etc. My set up is Burning arrows, poison arrows, and hunters shot. Hunter shot is there for my warrior hero so he can inflict Deep Wound. I know that the max is 10pips but hunters shot last for 27sec, poison last for 9 seconds(plus however long the preperation lasts) and burning arrow last for 7? seconds and inflicts +31 damage per shot. The point there is that they all last for a different amount of time. Burning arrows also only cost 10e at that. I regen 10e before BA is recharged.
Those are pretty much the reason I like my set up. I do keep Concussion Arrow on me just in case I run into a caster (they have to have at least 1 slower casted spell than the others and thats when I shoot it. True Concussion arrow cost alot, 25e, (ouch) and there are times I've wanted to shoot it but couldnt' do to lack of energy but still, its there. What I fail to understand, and the reason I'm posting this, is what BHA or Glass Arrows offers that my set up doesn't.
First is BHA. When I first capped this skill I misread it and reading this post has clarified it for me alot. I thought it only caused daze if it interrupted a spell but it causes Daze either way. Thats cool. I really like that actually and it cost less than Concussion Arrow however I don't run up on that many casters where I go and when I do I "TRY" to keep 25e on me so I have it ready. I'm not saying BHA is useless, far from it, it sounds great especially in PVP but we're not talking about PVP.
Second is Glass Arrows. The damage done by these is nice. The only thing I don't like about them is that they only inflict Bleeding if it is blocked and I'm just not blocked enough for that to take the place of Burning arrow where it has the same amount of damage and causes Burning. That's +31 damage + (-7) pips for 7 seconds.
Again, I'm not writing this cause I think its the best set up in the world. I guess I just wanted to give Burning Arrow its due and find out how it holds up. Thanks

MagmaRed · Jul 25, 2009, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypony89

At the risk of sounding like a complete noob, (which, in my defence I've only been playing for 4 weeks,) but people are saying they don't like BHA, they like Glass Arrows, they don't like Burning Arrows etc. My set up is Burning arrows, poison arrows, and hunters shot. Hunter shot is there for my warrior hero so he can inflict Deep Wound. I know that the max is 10pips but hunters shot last for 27sec, poison last for 9 seconds(plus however long the preperation lasts) and burning arrow last for 7? seconds and inflicts +31 damage per shot. The point there is that they all last for a different amount of time. Burning arrows also only cost 10e at that. I regen 10e before BA is recharged.
Those are pretty much the reason I like my set up. I do keep Concussion Arrow on me just in case I run into a caster (they have to have at least 1 slower casted spell than the others and thats when I shoot it. True Concussion arrow cost alot, 25e, (ouch) and there are times I've wanted to shoot it but couldnt' do to lack of energy but still, its there. What I fail to understand, and the reason I'm posting this, is what BHA or Glass Arrows offers that my set up doesn't.
First is BHA. When I first capped this skill I misread it and reading this post has clarified it for me alot. I thought it only caused daze if it interrupted a spell but it causes Daze either way. Thats cool. I really like that actually and it cost less than Concussion Arrow however I don't run up on that many casters where I go and when I do I "TRY" to keep 25e on me so I have it ready. I'm not saying BHA is useless, far from it, it sounds great especially in PVP but we're not talking about PVP.
Second is Glass Arrows. The damage done by these is nice. The only thing I don't like about them is that they only inflict Bleeding if it is blocked and I'm just not blocked enough for that to take the place of Burning arrow where it has the same amount of damage and causes Burning. That's +31 damage + (-7) pips for 7 seconds.
Again, I'm not writing this cause I think its the best set up in the world. I guess I just wanted to give Burning Arrow its due and find out how it holds up. Thanks

Degen is capped at -10. So if a monster has a regen cast on it (Healing Breeze), then going above the 10 limit will offset that. However, degen in PvE isn't very useful. In PvP it is there for pressure, to make people spend energy removing it or healing the damage it has done. In PvE, the monsters don't respond 'intelligently' and feel the pressure a human would. I use conditions that benefit the team, and cover them if I know the monsters I'll face have removal skills.

Glass Arrows is the strongest damage boost prep there is. Combine it with a skill like Dual Shot, Triple Shot, and/or Forker Arrow to boost the damage per attack. The bleeding from Glass Arrows isn't what you want, it is the damage.

Daze is very powerful when used on casters. And as you mentioned, areas with few casters will see little use from BHA. But you should know what you will face before you enter the instance, and can change your build to deal with what will be there. Concussion shot is very nice, but as you noted, it only supplies Daze if it interrupts a spell, and is a much costlier skill for energy.

BA is a useful skill for PvE if you like it. It supplies nice damage, and the degen is powerful even if you don't add to it with Poison, etc. The -7 from Burning will do decent damage on its own, and can also help Ele's using Searing Flames. There are VERY few skills that are not worth using some place, just that some skills are always the best for certain situations.

Aldric · Jul 25, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

While BHA can be useful in some areas i find it too limited to be on my bar much but when I did it was generally paired with YMLAD for the instant snare to make sure it hit.

Now if its an area i think is AoE heavy i'll throw technobabble on the build ,take PI and bring an anticaster Mes Hero. I can pair those 2 skills with EDA quite easily and it gives me a fair bit of both caster and melee shutdown.

If its damage i want then usually i like to take a Prep shot turret build or play spearchucker.

Fay Vert · Jul 25, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

BA is a useful skill for PvE if you like it. It supplies nice damage, and the degen is powerful even if you don't add to it with Poison, etc. The -7 from Burning will do decent damage on its own, and can also help Ele's using Searing Flames. There are VERY few skills that are not worth using some place, just that some skills are always the best for certain situations.

Wrong, BA is a useless skill in PvE because of Searing Flames. If you have SF eles in your party (and you should, heroes at least) then you are just wasting your time with BA as the ele will be burning everything in the area.

So many of the ranger's prefered skills look good at first glance, and unfortunately people never engage their brains and take a second glance, so these useless skills remain over-rated. BA is a good skill, but not in general PvE.

Chthon · Jul 25, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Sigh...

BHA is the only ranger elite worth bringing in serious PvE.

Let me repeat that:

BHA is the only ranger elite worth bringing in serious PvE.

Why? Simple: Like most RPG's, GW boils down to 3 things: do damage, prevent damage, heal damage. If you want to justify a spot on a team, you need to do at least one of these tasks better than anyone else. Rangers don't do any of these things particularly well compared to other classes, so they usually don't get a spot. When they do deserve a spot, usually BHA is what earns it for them. Taking the list in reverse order: With 3 pips and a primary attribute that doesn't work on spells, ranger's don't heal. That's a no brainer. The same can be said for damage prevention via buffing you own team generally. However, IF you can shut down very big AoE damage at the source, you may manage to prevent more than a caster spamming PS or Shelter. Best tool you have for doing that? Unconditional dazed from BHA. Finally, there's dealing damage. Try as we might, rangers are vastly inferior to several other classes at dealing direct damage. Sometimes, however, the monsters give us a chance to do enormous indirect damage by denying hundreds or thousands of points of healing. Best tool you have for doing that? Unconditional dazed from BHA.

And that's the long and short of it. Rangers are only as strong as whatever they can daze.

(There's a couple other elites worth mentioning, but they just aren't as good.

Prep Shot + CShot keeps some ability to daze and adds damage, but the damage is still worse than other classes and CShot suffers with the fastcast in HM.

Glass Arrows is a nice damage buff, but the damage is still worse than other classes.

Incendiary Arrows + Ignite Arrows + EBSoH is amusing AoE damage, but the damage is still worse than other classes. The multi-hit aspect also helps if you're trying to spam SY!.

Barrage can leverage stacked buffs with its multi-hit aspect and can spam SY!, but only shines if you design a team around it.)

mypony89 · Jul 26, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Wrong, BA is a useless skill in PvE because of Searing Flames. If you have SF eles in your party (and you should, heroes at least) then you are just wasting your time with BA as the ele will be burning everything in the area.

I'd have to disagree. I run with a warrior/Ranger, Necro/ritualist and a monk/ele so none of them have Searing Flames. I don't seem to have any problem killing what I need to kill and BA/poison are my main damage output. I didn't realize until a bit after my first post that my build was so close to a contageon build so I now have Epidemic on the bar. Seems to work even better.

Tenebrae · Jul 26, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Sigh...
BHA is the only ranger elite worth bringing in serious PvE.

Repeat it as many times as you want , is not true. Dont make your "experience" of the game look as an empiric test , its sick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Prep Shot + CShot keeps some ability to daze and adds damage, but the damage is still worse than other classes and CShot suffers with the fastcast in HM.

Experience with a ranger = 0 or near zero. No one uses Cshot , if a ranger wants to daze , goes BHA. Prep shot is great thou.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Glass Arrows is a nice damage buff, but the damage is still worse than other classes.

Nop , see first sentence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Incendiary Arrows + Ignite Arrows + EBSoH is amusing AoE damage, but the damage is still worse than other classes. The multi-hit aspect also helps if you're trying to spam SY!.

Erm , not again . Check first sentence !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Barrage can leverage stacked buffs with its multi-hit aspect and can spam SY!, but only shines if you design a team around it.)

..... do i have to repeat myself ?

Fay Vert · Jul 26, 2009, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Sigh...

BHA is the only ranger elite worth bringing in serious PvE.

Let me repeat that:

BHA is the only ranger elite worth bringing in serious PvE.

Rangers are so much better than this, I'm sorry you never got to know. Open your mind and learn what a ranger can do rather than being tied to that garbage skill, deluding yourself that you are useful.

AtomicMew · Jul 26, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Fay, why is BHA bad? Last time I checked, complete shutdown of a caster was a good thing, ESPECIALLY in HM.

Ugh · Jul 26, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Sigh...
BHA is the only ranger elite worth bringing in serious PvE.

Splinter Barrage has armor-ignoring AoE damage with Barrage + Splinter Weapon and armor-ignoring spike damage with Triple Shot + Nightmare Weapon. And, when I go pew pew for the occasional VQ, I hit in triple digits for most shots.

But still, there are very few other options for rangers in HM. Off the top of my head, the only ranger elites that would be useful in HM (not including farming builds) are Barrage, IA, BHA, Glass Arrows, Prepared Shot, and maybe Expert's Dexterity. Many other elites are just inefficient, stupid, or suited more towards PvP. For example, BA, Mel shot, and Magebane are good elites, but they are only really good in PvP. Other skills, like Lacerate, Archer's Signet, Practiced Stance, Punishing Shot, Equinox, Poison Arrow, Scavenger's Focus, Quick Shot, etc. are just terrible.

Lacerate: -2 degen and possibility to hurt more than help
Archer's Signet: all worthwhile conditions are elite
Practiced Stance: lol
Punishing Shot: Barely better than savage (and I don't mean savage is OP)
Equinox: no
Poison Arrow: Apply Poison saves you an elite slot
Scavenger's Focus: non-maintainable
Quick Shot: Hell no

While rangers can perform well in HM, I would still like some more options for skillz. Many of the skills are inefficient or completely stupid. Also, maybe buff Nature Rituals similarly to how Binding Rituals were buffed (PvE only and to a lesser extent than binding). While Rangers are not a class based around spirits, 25 of their skills are rituals and most don't see any play. More might be used if they didn't take 3-5 seconds to set up, have a really long recharge, and have crappy effects.

When's the last time anyone has used a spirit other than EoE effectively? (not including farms)

Fay Vert · Jul 26, 2009, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Fay, why is BHA bad? Last time I checked, complete shutdown of a caster was a good thing, ESPECIALLY in HM.

Simply because it's far too situational. One caster in PvE HM is pretty irrelevent, so a build based around suppression of a single target amongst so many really is completely inefficient. You dedicate yourself to just baby sitting a single mark. You're not doing anything, your not contributing in anyway to the party.

If the target is an aoe damage dealer, best to just put PI on it and its gone. Many of the kind of targets you would want to shut down have 3+ in the party anyhow. And many of those such as healer monks spam fast heal spells, doulbed in speed because of HM so your wonderful daze is not really doing a lot. I NM it can do something against these spam healers but not much in HM.

It also gimps one of the nice ranger skills, DShot, which doesn't work through daze. Scratch savage shot to the bin too while your at it, unless you want to bring these skills along so you can interrupt when your BHA misses.

That's before you factor in need to have the target hit by something else (your bow fire rate sucks), and the fact that BHA has the most bonkers arc so you certainly won't hit anything moving with it unless you forget that you are a ranger and get up close to it. What's the point of a bow if you are going to do that?

AtomicMew · Jul 26, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

If the target is an aoe damage dealer, best to just put PI on it and its gone. Many of the kind of targets you would want to shut down have 3+ in the party anyhow. And many of those such as healer monks spam fast heal spells, doulbed in speed because of HM so your wonderful daze is not really doing a lot. I NM it can do something against these spam healers but not much in HM.

Fay, that is just wrong. With minions and calling the target, BHA is complete caster shutdown, even with 1/2 cast time. Also, only PROPHECIES has 1/2 cast time (I think). It's definitely not everywhere.

I won't comment on the rest, because I don't have a ranger.

IronSheik · Jul 26, 2009, 04:53 AM // 04:53

^^^^ Wiki Hm Differences
Other differences include:

* 33-50% faster casting, movement, and attack speed as well as raised levels.

Chthon · Jul 26, 2009, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Splinter Barrage has armor-ignoring AoE damage with Barrage + Splinter Weapon and armor-ignoring spike damage with Triple Shot + Nightmare Weapon. And, when I go pew pew for the occasional VQ, I hit in triple digits for most shots.

Compared to buffed assassins and warriors doing 3 digits on every hit, curse necros filling the screen with 42's, and so forth, doing 3-digit damage once every time triple-shot rolls around is very weak. Don't get me wrong, I love rangers. But I have come to accept the fact that our damage output sucks. No matter how much folks wish it weren't so, and no matter how much I get called "sick" for saying so (lol, wth?), that fact's not going to change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

One caster in PvE HM is pretty irrelevent, so a build based around suppression of a single target amongst so many really is completely inefficient.

If you are expecting a significantly troublesome caster boss or strong HM healers, the cost of one party slot for a BHA ranger to neutralize that one problem foe is well worth it. If you're not expecting anything of that sort, you're better off bringing a more powerful damage dealer from another class and no ranger at all. If you're concerned about optimization, there's just no space in between those two extremes for any other sort of ranger.

Now, if you're not concerned about optimization -- that is *you* are the ranger and you don't feel like changing characters, so your party may just to have to live with being sub-optimal -- then there's a lot of fun stuff you can do with a ranger. Vanquish with a beastmaster, use Ignite + IAS to toy with the HM monster AI, go "pew pew", whatever you like. It's a fun, broad class with lots to do. Just don't pretend that any of it is even remotely close to optimal.

Tenebrae · Jul 26, 2009, 10:23 AM // 10:23

At least Fay vert knows what he is talking about ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Compared to buffed assassins and warriors doing 3 digits on every hit, curse necros filling the screen with 42's, and so forth, doing 3-digit damage once every time triple-shot rolls around is very weak. Don't get me wrong, I love rangers. But I have come to accept the fact that our damage output sucks. No matter how much folks wish it weren't so, and no matter how much I get called "sick" for saying so (lol, wth?), that fact's not going to change.

Fair comparison , Buffed melee with an Unbuffed Ranger , thanks lol. Dont know why you say "our" because you clearly lack experience with a ranger. Dont call your experiences a "fact" , that is only your opinion and its far far far from being a true fact about rangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If you are expecting a significantly troublesome caster boss or strong HM healers, the cost of one party slot for a BHA ranger to neutralize that one problem foe is well worth it. If you're not expecting anything of that sort, you're better off bringing a more powerful damage dealer from another class and no ranger at all. If you're concerned about optimization, there's just no space in between those two extremes for any other sort of ranger.

If you NEED a BHA to get rid of a boss or youll be dying anytime at that point , you are doing something wrong , VERY wrong. You just misunderstand the support role , it exists and its important and Ranger does it. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Now, if you're not concerned about optimization -- that is *you* are the ranger and you don't feel like changing characters, so your party may just to have to live with being sub-optimal -- then there's a lot of fun stuff you can do with a ranger. Vanquish with a beastmaster, use Ignite + IAS to toy with the HM monster AI, go "pew pew", whatever you like. It's a fun, broad class with lots to do. Just don't pretend that any of it is even remotely close to optimal.

Calling a party with a non BHA ranger sub-optimal is lame sorry. Its just plain misunderstanding of the class and its uses , going on discrimination ? :
- Warriors only tank
- Assassins only perma
- Rangers are only worth as dazebots
- Eles are only worth as blind/burn bots
- Mesmers only cryers
.....
...

Slasher of Darkness · Jul 26, 2009, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Hey all, I've been reading this thread over the few days because I was thinking about making a ranger becoz I need a break from my other char for a bit..So I was wondering if ranger's really are good in HM PvE or not, is it worth having one? Can I do good to great damage?

Ugh · Jul 26, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Compared to buffed assassins and warriors doing 3 digits on every hit, curse necros filling the screen with 42's, and so forth, doing 3-digit damage once every time triple-shot rolls around is very weak. Don't get me wrong, I love rangers. But I have come to accept the fact that our damage output sucks.

While it's not the best, it can still be pretty good. And, I definately wouldn't say it sucks.

Forked Arrow ^, Sloth Hunter's ^, Triple Shot ^ are the attacks I usually use for turreting (Forked might not be great for PvE, though. So maybe replace that with a cheap, spammable attack). Then, I use Expert's Dexterity for constant IAS and RtW to negate the high arc of a flatbow. Good energy management, attack speed, survivalibility, and damage. And that was against the 100 AL target, so more damage to casters.

Still wouldn't mind some buffs, though.